Comments on: The poor http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/the-poor/ long forgotten by the christianity of today Tue, 03 Mar 2009 06:32:46 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: poopemerges http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/the-poor/#comment-92 poopemerges Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:57:23 +0000 http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/?p=34#comment-92 Amy, 1. I agree but there must be a way to give that does not destroy the soul of a man...and connects us rather than separates us. 2. John Perkins would say he neither wants you to give him a fish nor teach him to fish...he wants to own the pond. 3. Your number 2 above is exactly the point i think that I am trying to make...evangelicals do not truly want two way discipleship relationships that lead to community and growth...they just want to throw money at problems and feel better about themselves... Amy,

1. I agree but there must be a way to give that does not destroy the soul of a man…and connects us rather than separates us.

2. John Perkins would say he neither wants you to give him a fish nor teach him to fish…he wants to own the pond.

3. Your number 2 above is exactly the point i think that I am trying to make…evangelicals do not truly want two way discipleship relationships that lead to community and growth…they just want to throw money at problems and feel better about themselves…

]]> By: amybaker http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/the-poor/#comment-91 amybaker Mon, 23 Jun 2008 01:36:46 +0000 http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/?p=34#comment-91 This is something my spouse and I have discussed at length, and you are touching on what I believe is a misunderstanding in particularly evangelicals on how to serve the poor. The standard "go-to" evangelical argument against spending time, money and resources on mercy ministriest is the silly adage of "give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." There are about a million things wrong with that philosophy, but I will just point out the two largest.. 1.) at some point, w/o the fish, the guy will die. Deadmen don't learn to fish. 2. ) (this is what drives me nuts) While evangelicals love to throw that phrase and ideology around, the churches that actually "teach" someone to fish are few and far between. They will ardently argue against social justice & 'Handouts" but their churches do nothing but a 30 hr. famine in youth group and hand out gift cards to grocery stores. These churches don't actually want to disciple the poor, they want to keep them at arm's length, especially if they are homeless and smell. I don't mean that disrespectfully, that is a real-life example from christians i know very well. You are correct in pointing out the error of feeding American materialism, but lets face it, it is much easier for us to "hand" something to someone than do the long slow work of redemption, discipleship, and building a hunger for the gospel. This is something my spouse and I have discussed at length, and you are touching on what I believe is a misunderstanding in particularly evangelicals on how to serve the poor.
The standard “go-to” evangelical argument against spending time, money and resources on mercy ministriest is the silly adage of “give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.” There are about a million things wrong with that philosophy, but I will just point out the two largest.. 1.) at some point, w/o the fish, the guy will die. Deadmen don’t learn to fish.
2. ) (this is what drives me nuts) While evangelicals love to throw that phrase and ideology around, the churches that actually “teach” someone to fish are few and far between. They will ardently argue against social justice & ‘Handouts” but their churches do nothing but a 30 hr. famine in youth group and hand out gift cards to grocery stores. These churches don’t actually want to disciple the poor, they want to keep them at arm’s length, especially if they are homeless and smell. I don’t mean that disrespectfully, that is a real-life example from christians i know very well.

You are correct in pointing out the error of feeding American materialism, but lets face it, it is much easier for us to
“hand” something to someone than do the long slow work of redemption, discipleship, and building a hunger for the gospel.

]]> By: Discussing the “Poor”… « Poop is Emergent Too http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/the-poor/#comment-87 Discussing the “Poor”… « Poop is Emergent Too Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:29:12 +0000 http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/?p=34#comment-87 [...] June 20, 2008 Filed under: Urban Ministry — poopemerges @ 1:28 pm My friend has a post here [...] [...] June 20, 2008 Filed under: Urban Ministry — poopemerges @ 1:28 pm My friend has a post here [...]

]]> By: poopemerges http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/the-poor/#comment-86 poopemerges Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:23:07 +0000 http://garagereformation.wordpress.com/?p=34#comment-86 Real goods for real service. This is what you will hear from urban workers and ministers who have a clue. We need to get beyond our food truck messiah mentality... When we become those who give goods and others only those who receive what good have we done? Everyone has something to offer and it is not necessarily cash. But handouts seldom lead to lasting change, or in imbuing man with the idea that they are valued by God. It is true that God himself has given with no strings that which we could never earn...but here in lies the truth of our way to fruitful ministry. The African, Indian, Filipino or American with no money dwelling in the ghetto is no more impoverished than we were before we met Jesus. We to at one point had nothing to offer. And we still bring nothing into our relationship with God...blessed are we when we realize it. Blessed are the poor in spirit...theirs is the kingdom of heaven. sola deo gloria. When we remember this we remember that we are not "messiahs" Jesus is. When we remember this we can not only minister to, but we can be ministered to. Working in the city becomes not an issue of changing "those" people, but of true partnership...we are all those people...and together we grow. Real goods for real service. This is what you will hear from urban workers and ministers who have a clue. We need to get beyond our food truck messiah mentality… When we become those who give goods and others only those who receive what good have we done? Everyone has something to offer and it is not necessarily cash. But handouts seldom lead to lasting change, or in imbuing man with the idea that they are valued by God.

It is true that God himself has given with no strings that which we could never earn…but here in lies the truth of our way to fruitful ministry. The African, Indian, Filipino or American with no money dwelling in the ghetto is no more impoverished than we were before we met Jesus. We to at one point had nothing to offer. And we still bring nothing into our relationship with God…blessed are we when we realize it. Blessed are the poor in spirit…theirs is the kingdom of heaven. sola deo gloria.

When we remember this we remember that we are not “messiahs” Jesus is. When we remember this we can not only minister to, but we can be ministered to. Working in the city becomes not an issue of changing “those” people, but of true partnership…we are all those people…and together we grow.

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